Election: Individual, Corporate, What?

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Fri, 06 Jul 2007 09:53:28 +0100

I actually didn't see Rufus' description as salvific at all; I simply noted that the word there is the same for elect but in context it was referring to him as choice, the best of the best, upright, etc. I do see election more as corporate and in most situations for a specific role--still not salvific but effective in redemptive history (ie: The Gentiles are chosen to provoke Israel to jealousy even if that's not the only reason it's still hugely important in redemptive history). That doesn't imply that every single Gentile is effective in this role or even that individual Gentiles are effective in this role but it does show the intent of the Gentile Group. I've argued the same point with Ephesians 1, it bears reminding that it always says In Christ or In Him. - Rey

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Fri, 06 Jul 2007 06:10:53 +0100

In other words God the Father didn't chose me as an individual before the creation of the world to be saved, rather He chose Christ and a class of people a kind or type of people who are characterized by relationship of repentance w Christ, and because I responded to Gods light, repented and received Christ as Savior and Lord, I or anyone else can say I'm chosen IN THE LORD because I have received Christs election thus Gods favor.. While God didn't chose me as an individual, God had eternally intended His favor for me as well as every individual before the creation of the world. So His election is intended for every individual, its efficacious for no individual unconditionally, rather it's only directly efficacious for a kind or type of people, and when that individual becomes part of that kind or class of people, it becomes efficacious in for them in their lives as well. I had 3 hrs of sleep..hope that made some sense.. - Dominick

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Fri, 06 Jul 2007 05:46:30 +0100

About Romans 16:13 it isn't talking about the basis upon which God chooses/elects but about someone who has already been incorporated with Christ into His body/elected class/kind or type of people. Paul is speaking after the fact about someone who has already been incorporated in Christ, and therefore has received Christs' election, sonship, perfection, favor etc. So while God doesn't choose individuals for salvation, but a kind or type of people in Christ (those kinds of types who identify w/respond and receieve Christ via repentance) are the elect, when an individual in time "hears the word of truth" and then are "included in CHrist like it says in Eph 1 they become part of the elect class and therefore can be stated to be chosen in the Lord. Eph 1 doesnt say He chose me, nor does it say He chose me or christians before the creation of the world, it says He chose Christians in Christ before the creation of the world..therefore this means God has eternally decided to elect (signifying Gods favor) Christians in Christ. - Dominick

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Thu, 30 Jun 2005 11:02:31 +0100

The list is in-progress and it also starts off limiting the search to the terminology of choice, elect, or chosen. After that, I\'ll ripple out to events of choosing. - Rey

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Thu, 30 Jun 2005 10:54:49 +0100

Several key places don\'t seem to be here: Gen 50, Isa 10, Acts 2, Acts 4, Eph 1 - Jeremy Pierce

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Wed, 15 Jun 2005 08:54:45 +0100

Yeah, I agree with you Phil. That\'s why I even gave some extra lee-way by making the elect lady be either a woman or a corporate body. And in the cases where individuals are described as chosen it\'s for a task--not for salvation. And in most cases, the term \"choice\" or \"elect\" seems to lean more towards the best of a category or the distinct of a category. I\'ll have to do another one of these with the use of predestination. - Rey

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Wed, 15 Jun 2005 08:11:28 +0100

Rey - Thanks for doing my homework! :laugh:

Actually, let me retract a little. Romans 16:13 talks about Rufus who is \'chosen in the Lord.\' Thus, if someone wanted an example of an individual, other than Jesus, who is spoken of as chosen, they could do so with this verse. However, there are two points to consider on this:
- I don\'t see us being able to hang the entire doctrine of individual election as typically stated on this one verse nor even when taken into combination with other verses on election, because...
- the entire rest of Scripture on election speaks of it corporately in Jesus - in fact this verse itself places the emphasis on being chosen \'in the Lord.\' Normal hermenuetics suggests to interpret the less often used sense in light of the more often used sense. Thus, I don\'t believe that this one verse does any damage to the position that I suggested yesterday.

Election in the NT is always connected with being \'in Christ\' rather than some unconditional decision on the part of God. When we look at how the NT writers use this phrase (in Him, Christ, Jesus, Beloved) we see that all the abundance and blessings of Jesus are transferred to the believer....I\'m sorry...I\'m repeating from yesterday. Anyhow, given the usage of \'in Him\' in the NT, those who hold to individual election must explain in what sense was Jesus Unconditionally Elected - and then does our election become a seperate action of God (Unconditional Election) or is it an action that is concurrent with our being placed in Jesus... - PhilThreeten