Question on the Perception of Impropriety

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Sun, 19 Jun 2005 12:51:18 +0100

This is actually a mistranslation, according to most commentators nowadays. They argue that it says to avoid every kind of evil. The noun can mean either form or appearance, but two things suggest form rather than appearance.

One is that Paul\'s statement is similar to several OT passages that have no sense of appearance to them (e.g. Job 1:1,8). Those contexts also include \'pas\' in the LXX, for \"every\" in English. When the word appears without that, it can mean \"appearance\", but it never occurs elsewhere with \'pas\' to mean \"appearance\".

The other issue is that even the cases where it means appearance can\'t mean what this verse is taken to mean in, e.g., the KJV. When it means appearance it\'s about the appearance of something that reflects its underlying nature, not the appearance of something that gives a false impression. So even if it\'s saying to avoid the appearance of evil, it wouldn\'t be the mere appearance. It would be a command to avoid the outward sign of real evil in the heart.

I do think that there can be good rules of thumb regarding how we are perceived, but I don\'t see it as the kind of command this is in the KJV. That just doesn\'t seem to be what Paul has in mind. Any such recommendation has to be a rule of thumb that can be better or worse in different circumstances, depending on what other rules of thumb come into play (or what deeper moral considerations are involved). - Jeremy Pierce

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Fri, 10 Jun 2005 19:36:33 +0100

Good stuff guys.

More to consider: Luke, Paul and company sat with the women who had gathered in prayer (Luke 16). Paul refers to those who enter the households and captivate weak women who are driven by their impulses (2 Tim 3). Those are just vignettes that could lead credence to maintaining a proper context in any relationship. I think there might be something to say to hanging out with the guys all the time or what not. Jesus would correct thinking by saying not to judge by appearance but with righteous judgment (John something). That would support that we shouldn�t be quick judge any thing we see based on appearances alone�be it in person or in text. Also to consider is that good elders and deacons are told to be characteristically above reproach and blameless (Timothy and Titus). So not only does the context (as Phil said) come into play but so does the character. Character + Context + Not being Quick to Judge + being Careful.

Why wouldn�t that all apply to relationship with friends of the same sex? Impropriety isn�t limited to sexual relationships. Impropriety might be emotional or financial or even use of language or writing. I started off thinking about the sexual appearance but it�s just as easy for a person to see a group of men and think �they�re up to no good�.

David re: \"Are you faced with such a situation?\"
No. And once again, no. This isn\'t grounded on any household argument or any situation in my life. While painting, I was thinking about some guys going on a missionary journey together when a random passing thought about my friends (Christian and Non) came to mind. Whenever these guys see a couple of men together in the city they snicker and say �Gay�.

And really, there may not be an answer to all this. Like I said, I put this up for discussion and am enjoying it thus far.
B) - Rey

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Fri, 10 Jun 2005 14:51:43 +0100

I think it depends on how you define alone. Alone at a table in a public restuarant or alone in a hotel room. I think I would use 1Timothy 5:1-2 as a verse that guided all my interactions with people in general and believers in particular. I don\'t have any sisters, so this might not sound reasonable. Would I take my sister out to dinner? Probably. Would I share a hotel room with her? Probably not. In either case would I hide it from anybody? No. Would I make sure my wife knew about it? Yes.

The peculiar wording for James 2:15-17 suggests to me that there might be extenuating circumstances that would compell me to go beyond my comfort zone to help a sister in need. I like the way David put it, if you can\'t avoid it, don\'t worry about it. If we are honest, it isn\'t usually too hard to avoid.

The only example from Acts that I could think of was admittedly a bit of a stretch, but in Acts 9:40-41. Peter was in a room with a dead woman and brought ther back to life. However, he was in ear shot of other brothers. - Sean Kelly

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Fri, 10 Jun 2005 09:34:24 +0100

I can\'t think of many instances when it would be wise to be alone with another woman whether or not anyone saw me. If I could think of such an occasion, I\'d say, avoid it. If you can\'t avoid it, don\'t worry about it.

Are you faced with such a situation?

I can\'t really think of a Scripture that applies. - David Kjos

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Thu, 09 Jun 2005 19:44:05 +0100

Yeah, David and Sean I can see a presuppositional problem here. I\'m going into the text thinking X and finding justification J. Is there another passage where you would find support for the impression that you give others? Can a guy be seen with a woman who isn\'t his wife or relative? Should he be? - Rey

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Thu, 09 Jun 2005 15:31:39 +0100

I agree with David\'s point. And as a further example to back it up. The issue Paul had in Corinth was that there was \"immorality of such a kind as does not exist even among the Gentiles\" All the same perversions existed back then and Paul never mentioned any problems with the iffy fact that everyone seemed to know if someone was circumsized or not. - Sean Kelly

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Thu, 09 Jun 2005 10:51:20 +0100

The admonition in 1Thesselonians 5:22 is not to abstain from things that look evil, but from things that actually are evil. Yes, you should be careful of the impression your actions might give others, but you don\'t find that in this passage.

I think it\'s ridiculous to think that you can\'t be seen with another man. Here is how that logic plays out:

Don\'t be seen with your mother or sister, or any other female relative. People who don\'t know them, but know you\'re married, might think you\'re having an extra-marital affair. Others who don\'t know either of you might think they\'re your shacked-up girlfriend. Still others who know both of you might think you have an incestuous relationship. Closer to your example, put your father and brothers into the equation.

Don\'t be seen alone with your own children because people might think... well, you know what.

Finally, don\'t go out in public alone with your wife. Strangers don\'t know you\'re married. It\'s no stretch to assume you\'re living in sin like a large portion of the population is.

In fact, you\'d better stay away from everyone.

Ridiculous enough? OK, back in the real world, I wouldn\'t go to a gay hang-out with a male friend. That would look bad. But then, I\'m not likely to go anywhere like that, anyway. - David Kjos

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Thu, 09 Jun 2005 06:53:19 +0100

That\'s a good point and a very helpful one. Perhaps the cultural context is what skews thedefinition.So then as society perverts something (like offering meat to idols and selling it on the street) then participating in that something in that context would be perceived as wrong. But then, look at the Catholic church scandals. Priests hanging out with altar boys might (all of a sudden) look bad. Heck, if Paul and Timothy were going around today, everywhere...would there be talk?

Thanks Phil - Rey

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Thu, 09 Jun 2005 05:28:13 +0100

Rey - I think it depends on what cultural assumptions would be. Do people (especially non-believers since that is who the verse you are talking about is primarily speaking about) automatically assume that because you are hanging out with a guy that you are gay? I don\'t think that\'s an assumption unless you give them reason to think that. However, it will also depend on the environment of who you are talking to.

When I worked in corporate, I would often hear about the amount of drinking that people did. Around them, I would not drink nor would I talk about my own intake of alcohol...the reason being is that their assumption of minimal consumption was WAY over what my maximum consumption would be. To talk about it would give a hint of impurity.

Does that help? :( - PhilThreeten