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Tue, 07 Jun 2005 01:00:00 +0100

Amazing Grace.
Written by Name:Tim on 2005-05-23 10:24:25Russ,
I see that you can\'t get past the idea that faith precedes regeneration. It all hangs on Total Depravity, as I said before, and without a firm belief in just how sinful and depraved we are the rest of the TULIP crumbles. You cannot build an argument for the U L I or P unless the T is nailed down. If you\'ve defeated the \"T\" then the rest is a waste of time.
Without the \"T\" there is no need of \"Irresistible Grace\" because men aren\'t \"Totally\" depraved. They are \"Partially\" depraved but still left with some ability to choose good. Because they are left with that ability there is no need for grace to be \"Irrisistible\". Men will either choose to accept it or reject it.
Here are some verses that you\'ve overlooked. I think they speak for themselves.
John 6:37
Quote:

All that the Father giveth me shall come to me;

John 5:21
Quote:

For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

John 10:16
Quote:

And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Perhaps the most over looked passage in the debate is:
Acts 13:48
Quote:

And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Many have tried to rearrange this verse but it is grammatically correct just as it is here. Men and women \"BELIEVE\" because the are \"ORDAINED\" to eternal life. They\'re not ordained because they\'ve believed. You can\'t reverse the order.

If God\'s grace weren\'t irrisistible then none would believe. Why would you believe, Russ, and one of your best friends not believe? Is it because you are so much smarter? Is it because you are such a better person? Is it because you made an extra effort to be something more and do something more?
1 Corinthians 4:7
Quote:

For who maketh thee to differ from another?

This is a rhetorical question. The answer is obvious, it is God who makes us differ. You believe because God made you a believer. You differ from the unbeliever because God made you to differ.
If this weren\'t the case then grace wouldn\'t be \"Amazing\".
1 Cor 4:7
Written by biblerey on 2005-05-23 13:59:02Is 1 Cor 4:7 speaking about the difference between unsaved and saved or is it asking who made one believer more superior than the other so as to justify arrogance?
Either...
Written by Name:Tim on 2005-05-23 16:06:38Any differences are due to God\'s work alone. Why aren\'t we all as bad as a Hitler? Because we have been restrained by God\'s grace and he was set loose. The same with Pharoah which is why it is said that \"He hardened his heart.\" and that \"God hardened his heart.\" God uses means but He is the uncaused cause of all events.
Why do some believe and others continue in unbelief? God is the answer.
Why were some called to be Apostles and others weren\'t? God is the answer.
All differences are the result of the Potter\'s hand.
Written by Name: PastorRuss on 2005-05-24 08:48:00Tim � sorry for the delay. I had the pleasure of visiting with one of our missionaries yesterday and it was a wonderful day of seeing what God is doing in the lives of people that are broken beyond imagination�Praise Him!!

As to your post � Actually, Tim, I�ve presented what I believe to be a fully Biblical response to Total Depravity. In that post I showed that:
a) Jesus expected there to be faith in the unregenerate (Mark 6:5-6)
b) That faith precedes life (John 20:31)
c) That a proper understanding of death does not negate faith (i.e. that spiritual death does not declare spiritual inability) but instead focuses on separation (Revelation 20:10-15)
d) And an added bonus in this post � that the unregenerate are able to do things that are pleasing, yet not meritorious towards salvation (Acts 17:11-12)

Thus, I stated that although I completely agree that mankind can neither pursue God nor do anything that will merit him/her salvation, that God can (and does) pursue us and calls each person to do the only thing that will not bring the individual any glory � believe.

Given this presentation, the Calvinist must defend:
a) That the unregenerate are incapable of believing � I understand that there are a plethora of verses that state we can not meritoriously work our way to salvation. But if you are going to use any of these verses, then you must also show that faith in the unregenerate is a meritorious work. Such defense has not been given.
b) The verses that place life after faith (I listed many more in my original post). I realize that you would like to interpret the verses that place life after faith as meaning salvation after faith, but then you will need to define regeneration to me. My understanding is that regeneration is the giving of life to the spiritually dead. If that is accurate and it occurs either before or concurrent with faith, what can a verse like John 20:31 possibly mean. I�ve been given life and then I�m given life�? Your defense of regeneration either prior to or simultaneous with faith has not taken these verses into consideration.
c) If I remember correctly, you actually agreed that death does equal separation, thus, I�m not sure how you can make the jump from spiritual death (being separated from God in our sinfulness) to spiritual inability (not being able to believe). You�ve not explained this.
d) You noted in a previous post that Romans 8:8 shows that unregenerate man cannot please God. I tried to show there that within the context of chapters 7 and 8 that Paul is speaking about meritoriously attaining salvation, which you disagreed with. So, were the Bereans doing something pleasing to God prior to believing when they searched the Scripture (Acts 17:11-12)? If yes, then your argument on Romans 8:8 is moot. If no, then why are they called noble for doing the searching?

As for your other verses:

John 6:37 � I don�t disagree with this. However, one must ask, �Who does the Father give?� The Calvinist answers, �The elect� which is not completely wrong in that those who come to Christ are elect. However, what does the context tell us who these elect are? Verse 44 states that no one can come to the Son unless the Father draws him. Note that it does not say that ALL that the Father draws will come, only that no one can come unless the Father draws. So, who does the Father draw? Verse 45a refers back to v. 44 (see how the phrase �It is written� is used in John elsewhere � always referring to what precedes) and describes how and who are drawn. All are taught by God. So, if all are taught by God/drawn, but not necessarily everyone comes, what is the qualifier that determines the difference? Verse 45b tells us � those who listen and learn. Now, you can try to argue that only those who God unconditionally chose in eternity past are those who listen and learn, but that is another discussion. John 6:37-45, when read in context, shows exactly what we have been saying.

John 5:21 � This verse is inconclusive. Who is the Son pleased to give life to? Verse 24 would seem to place the pleasing to give on those who hear and believe. Thus, again, the context defeats what you are trying to prove.

John 10:16 � I think its probably clear from this passage that Jesus is speaking about the difference between Jews and Gentiles here. You have no argument from me that unregenerate people are able to listen and learn to what God says. So, this verse dovetails nicely with what we discussed in John 6.

Acts 13:48 � there are a number of paths that we could go down on this, but I�ve already been wearied at other sites on this verse, so we�ll take the easiest road. This verse, again in context, is not a treatment of election. All it is saying is that those who were ordained/appointed/set aside for eternal life believed. It states nothing about how that appointment happened. Under UE, we showed that we are chosen �in Christ�. Thus, we are chosen by association not by decree. That association is made when we believe. Since God foreknows about our association with Christ, we are elect from eternity past. Thus, it is not impossible for Luke here in Acts 13:48 speaking of the elect believing. You�ve not proven your point here since those set aside for eternal life based upon the foreknowledge of God are doing what God foreknew they would do. It proves nothing of an unconditional nature in election.

Tim, you state that, �If God\'s grace weren\'t irresistible then none would believe.� Prove this statement Biblically. I know this is what Calvinism teaches, but I don�t find it in Scripture. Instead, I see from Genesis 3 all the way through Revelation 20, God trying with every part of His being to make ALL people aware of their need to trust in Him. Why all the effort if people can�t believe apart from an irresistible influence by God on their life?

Tim � �Why would you believe, Russ, and one of your best friends not believe? Is it because you are so much smarter? Is it because you are such a better person? Is it because you made an extra effort to be something more and do something more?� I don�t know. No. No. No. I simply don�t know why I responded to God�s judgment and love in my life and other of my friends have not. But nor do I need to come up with some theological reason for it. God convicted me, He taught me, I listened and learned, I am Christ�s. That I know. I also know that I will not give up on telling others how I have seen the risen Savior in my life because God may, in His unfathomable wisdom that is beyond my comprehension, use a fool like me to be His instrument in the Holy Spirit�s conviction of those friends whom I love so dearly and yet do not know true love. Sorry�.that was off topic. To answer your question, I don�t know but see no Scriptural reason why I must know.

1 Corinthians 4:7 � �Either�� I think v. 6 actually answers your response better than I could. This verse, as Rey pointed out, is talking about differences of superiority or inferiority, not to why a person is a believer or not a believer. You must prove this to the text, not simply apply your theology to a text that says what you want it to say.
Written by Name: on 2005-05-24 17:20:37Russ said,
Quote:

I don�t know. No. No. No. I simply don�t know why I responded to God�s judgment and love in my life and other of my friends have not.

When you get to heaven and find out, we\'ll still let you hang out with the Calvinists! We know why. That\'s why we defend the doctrines of grace. :grin
heh heh
Written by biblerey on 2005-05-24 17:37:32lol. :)
Written by Name:PastorRuss on 2005-05-24 18:19:42LOL - Tim

Russ on Irresistible Grace

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