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Sat, 25 Jun 2005 16:52:23 +0100

Comments
Unconditional Election
Written by Name:Tim on 2005-05-09 08:25:36Russ said,
Quote:

We are elect but only by our association with Christ by being placed in Him � since He is the elect one and we are in Him, we are elect. We are placed in Christ when we believe the gospel (Ephesians 1:1-13). God foreknew all of this in eternity past and so has seen us as elect for all time (1 Peter 1:1-3, Romans 8:29).

Now that\'s a Calvinistic statement I can live with. Nuff said. :grin
Doug\'s Question
Written by biblerey on 2005-05-09 12:33:21Brother Doug at Cofeeswirls asks Russ a question regarding \"nearness to God\". THis has little to do with Unconditional Election and somewhat tangential to Total Depravity but since the other post is like 44 comments long, I figured I would post this here
Unconditional Election
Written by Name:Tim on 2005-05-09 15:55:23I\'m surprised my comment hasn\'t at least drawn a :eek or a couple of :?
As I stated in our \"T\" discussion, I believe the entire system breaks down if you don\'t endorse the \"T\". There is no 4 point Calvinism (Amraldyianism) or 3 point Calvinism, etc. Russ\'s statement, \"...we are placed in Christ when we believe the gospel...\" is right on. The difference in our understanding has to do with \"who will believe?\"
Let\'s consider the following passage:

Quote:

He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
(John 1:11-13)

Who are those who believe? Answer: Those who are born.
How are they born? Answer: (1)Not of blood. That is, not the natural birth of flesh and blood. (2)Not of the will of the flesh. That is, not by a volitional act that you decide to make for yourself. (3)Not by the will of man. That is, not by the desires and hopes of your parents or pastor of Christian friends. (4)but of God. That is, all who are saved will not receive or believe until they are born of God.
Is everyone born of God? No, if they were then everyone would be saved.
If someone does not receive Christ, or believe, it is because they are not \"born of God\". If you are \"born of God\" it is His doing. It is not something that takes place because of natural birth, a personal decision or the decision of others. It is done by election. That\'s why I sing, \"Amazing grace how sweet the sound that SAVED a wretch like me.\"
Written by biblerey on 2005-05-09 17:11:37Like Russ, Arminians have often called me a Calvinist especially when they hear my understanding of Ephesians 2:8 and 9.

So your reasoning here is:

B = Believe
R = Receive
N = Born of God

B = R (they\'re interchangeable)
if someone B then it must mean that they were N

If someone does not B then they were not N

?
Yup...
Written by Name:Tim on 2005-05-09 17:28:06That appears to be the sentence structure to me and that\'s my understanding of the verse.
Written by biblerey on 2005-05-09 17:46:16Does the verse specify what type of belief? I\'m having a problem with James 2:19 and John 8 right about now.
hhhmmm....
Written by Name:Tim on 2005-05-09 18:43:33It seems to me that \"believe\" and \"receive\" are intentionally connected together here so that there is no room for doubt or misunderstanding. Believe and receive are equivalent to faith and trust.
Written by Name: PastorRuss on 2005-05-09 20:27:03Tim - Sorry....wasn\'t sure how to take your post and sadly its been a busy day so I\'ve not had as much time to check the sites today (and I won\'t be in the office till 10 am tomorrow, so don\'t expect quick morning responses either :grin ). Since everything falls at TD, you will find the next several posts pretty much useless :eek But, as I have already noted in TD:
- There has been no indicator as to why Jesus expected faith in the unrepentent in Mark 6:5-6 (I could also add that the faith of individuals is always attributed to them, not to a gift from God). This also shows that when faith was lacking, Jesus could not work....there must be some lesson for us there....
- Even if regeneration and faith are simultaneous, it does not figure in verses such as John 20:31 which place life/regeneration after belief. The dead must believe.

Your point above in John 1 is agreed on, though I would see it differently than you. Note that it is those who believe that are born again. It would seem that faith comes prior to the new birth. However, even if it doesn\'t, phrase in 1:13 stands as it is: we cannot will ourselves to be born again. Nowhere in my writing do I suggest that it is by our will that we are born again. I never equate faith with will. Scripturally, we are always born again because of our faith. Thus, your argument doesn\'t stand since I\'m not arguing that we will ourselves to be born again. I realize this throws a bit of a wrench into the argument since you will want to argue about free will....sadly, I will argue no such thing. I am arguing about whether faith is present in the unregenerate....I find evidence as per my TD post that there is.
Written by Name:Tim on 2005-05-09 22:20:33Faith requires an exercise of the will. The will is the \"power\" that exercises \"faith\". John 1:18-20 says, \"to them gave He power to become sons of God.\"
If people already had this power there would be no need for God to give it.
Written by biblerey on 2005-05-09 22:46:55Faith isn\'t a work brother nor is simply willing/wanting equated to faith. That was the point of my questioning regarding John 8 and the demons.
Written by Name:Tim on 2005-05-10 09:39:59Exercising the will is a work. Are we to presume that a work can be done without an effort of the will?

Faith cannot be exercised apart from the will. We may conclude that all men have a faith of sorts but that faith will not trust in God until men are made willing.

Consider:
Quote:

John 5:39,40 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Do you suppose that you and I are of a better and more righteous character than these to whom Jesus is speaking? If so, then we shall be praised in heaven and not Jesus for the decision to save is not His but ours. We shall watch as these are cast into the lake of fire and say, \"If only they were more like me. I am to be praised for I was willing to make a decision and these were unwilling to do so.\"
Written by Name: PastorRuss on 2005-05-10 10:14:34Tim - as before, I am going to ask that you provide Scriptural backing for statements like this Quote:

\"Faith cannot be exercised apart from the will. We may conclude that all men have a faith of sorts but that faith will not trust in God until men are made willing.\"

Your use of John 1:12 is inconclusive as to whether the will and faith work together. The word used in 93 other places in Scripture almost always has the sense of governmental authority or rights. Occasionally, it is used as an ability. Never is it linked to the will of man.

Also, simply finding a verse that has the word \'will\' in it does not give you backing for what you are saying. There is a vast difference between the will that you quote in John 5:40 (simple futurity) and the will we are speaking of (deliberate intention or wish).

Quote:

If so, then we shall be praised in heaven and not Jesus for the decision to save is not His but ours. We shall watch as these are cast into the lake of fire and say, \"If only they were more like me. I am to be praised for I was willing to make a decision and these were unwilling to do so.\"

Scripture states this isn\'t so. So, our definition of faith must include this.

I\'m sorry to be a nudge, but my gripe is that we\'ve been arguing for hundreds of years about terminology that is simply not in Scripture (or at least connected in Scripture - obviously Scripture talks about the will and faith, but never together even in the regenerate). I struggled with this last night during my daily walk....is it possible for us to have a passive action that we are responsible for? That is the best way (and with a complete lack of theological panache) that I can describe what I see in Scripture. An act that is active, yet not willed, yet for which we are culpible for...I\'m just throwing this on the table as a what if....any one else have any ideas?
Written by Name:PastorRuss on 2005-05-10 10:17:01PS - in addition, in your quote of John 1:12, you\'ve forgotten the first part of the verse, to those who believed He gave the power/ability/right/etc. Thus, belief in this verse comes before the power...I\'m not sure how you are connecting power and believing in this verse and making them the same thing....
Receive - Believe - Power - Born
Written by Name:Tim on 2005-05-10 11:02:19Receive comes before power.
Believe is equated with Receive by the word \"even\".

Who has power? Those who receive him. Who receives him? Those who believe. Who believes? Those who are born of God. How are we born of God? By the power to become. Where does this power come from? He gave them power.

The verse says, \"power to become\". It seems to me that you\'re suggesting that we \"become before we have power\".
Russ, are you suggesting that there is some invisible omnipotent force other than God that activates our faith for us apart from our own will? Or that faith in itself is a force that operates seperately from our will? How can man be held accountible then? He only needs to say, \"I had no decision in the matter.\" Faith works independantly from the decisions I make.
Your circular reasoning makes me dizzy! :x
Written by PastorRuss on 2005-05-10 12:17:22Tim-

Quote:

Who has power? Those who receive him. Who receives him? Those who believe. Who believes? Those who are born of God. How are we born of God? By the power to become. Where does this power come from? He gave them power.

Well, here\'s how I see this verse:
- those born of God are children of God
- the ability/right/power to become children of God is given by God
- that ability/right/power is given to those who receive/believe.
So, I\'m not sure how you are placing the power prior to the receiving/believing since in the passage it seems clear to me that it preceeds the giving of the power to be born again. How either within the Greek or within this passage are you stating that the power comes prior to the believing/receiving when the verse makes it a precedent to the power (Though the Greek places the believing after the right/power tois pisteuousin is an attributive participle referring with an appositional force to receiving - thus, as you\'ve stated, believing and receiving are synonomous and describe the condition which God gives the right/ability/power to become children).

Quote:

Russ, are you suggesting that there is some invisible omnipotent force other than God that activates our faith for us apart from our own will? Or that faith in itself is a force that operates seperately from our will? How can man be held accountible then? He only needs to say, \"I had no decision in the matter.\" Faith works independantly from the decisions I make.
Your circular reasoning makes me dizzy![

Its always dangerous to put theories out there....so if the last post is confusing or circular (though I\'m not sure how), or useless to the discussion, I\'m willing to drop it as unnecessary.

To answer your questions: No I don\'t believe that there is any other invisible omnipotent force that activates our faith - my wonder was whether faith is something that acts seperately from the will? If I am on a ledge and told to jump, I\'d still desire to go through the building...but if it is life and death and I have no other choice, I might trust the fireman and jump....is that really an act of the will or an act of faith? I know the analogy breaks down...but that is what I was wondering.
Is faith a force that operates seperately from the will? I think the possibility at least exists. I recognize the tension that exists with Calvinists over free will. I hope through these posts Calvinists are also recognizing the tension that exists for those who have issues with faith being nothing but a gift of God when believing faith is expected of the unregenerate and is always attributed to man, not God.
\"I had not decision in the matter\"- this I disagree with - as I noted, I\'m wondering whether there is a passive action that we are culpable for. So, your final statements would not fit the type of definition for faith that I\'m looking for.

My struggle with all this is that Scripture clearly states that it is not through my will that I am saved. Yet, just as clearly, it calls me to believe and I am expected to believe (even as an unregenerate). The calling and the expectation are meaningless if it is something that my nature is utterly incapable of.
Faith
Written by Name: Klompman on 2005-05-11 14:52:43Pastor Russ: Thanks for pointing out that \"The calling and the expectation are meaningless if it is something that my nature is incapable of.\" My feeling exactly.

The Lord Jesus started his ministry with \"repent\" Mt 4:17 and \"Come, follow Me\" Mt 4:19 and exhorted people: \"Seek ye first the Kingdom of God and His righteousness ...\" Mt 6:33. These instructions would be meaningless if his hearers could not respond. After all \"Faith comes by hearing ... the Word of God.\" Rom 10:17 so the order of hearing - believing - regeneration makes sense.

Tim: Jn 1:12,13 do not indicate that new birth precedes faith. Instead \"those who believe ... become children of God ... born of God.\"
Commentary.
Written by biblerey on 2005-05-14 18:05:11Blake has some commentary on Russ\' unconditional election post. Like I\'ve said in the past, there\'s hundreds of UC posts but Blake reflects specifically on Russ\' words.

You can see what he says over at his site, Informed Minds - Rey

Russ on Unconditional Election

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