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Sat, 25 Jun 2005 19:42:44 +0100

A Gift from God...
Written by Name: Tim on 2005-04-27 11:02:58
Faith MUST be a gift. Peter describes it as something \"obtained\" 2Peter 1:1.

Dead men have nothing, including faith even though it is a means that God uses. He must provide the means.

The antecedent to the preposition (\"that\") is \"grace\", \"saved\", and \"faith\".

For by grace are you saved through faith; and \"that\" grace is not of yourself, it is a gift of God.

For by grace are you saved through faith; and \"that\" salvation is not of yourself, it is a gift of God.

For by grace are you saved through faith; and \"that\" faith is not of yourself, it is a gift of God.

The word \"that\" points back to the entire clause and encompasses \"grace\", \"saved\" and \"faith\".

Okay.
Written by biblerey on 2005-04-27 11:42:25
I don\'t see your point Brother Tim. I stated as much in my post that the term \"that\" refers to the entire salvation by God. The means, the offering of and the fact of salvation. I\'ve discussed the Dead men bit just about to death and as for faith being a gift, I\'ve often said as much except not in the same form as you I gather.

Ok...
Written by Tim on 2005-04-27 11:56:39
I must have misunderstood the point you were making...
[quote]
Here the Calvinist might balk and say �Faith is a gift of God� and the Arminian may snap back �Grace is the gift of God.� Both wrong and if they get stuck there they miss the point of the passage in its entirety.[/quote]

Ah.
Written by biblerey on 2005-04-27 12:04:04
The point was to look at it all as a unit and a passage that speaks of the Grace of God. If this was a study on Romans 4 then it would appear that the leaning is all on FAITH and not on GRACE (appear, although not in actuality).

The fact that God decides to save at all [which includes His Grace, His mercy and through Faith] is in itself the Gift of God. Perhaps I was unclear by saying they\'re \"both wrong\". \"Both right\" may have been closer to the point.

Just as I expected...
Written by Doug on 2005-04-27 17:52:16
We really aren\'t as far apart in these things as others have claimed. I recall you being mistreated because you don\'t mirror the same theology that they do, but just as the church at Ephesis was disciplined for forgetting its true love, they are forgetting theirs and using the gospel to mistreat a believer.

Our interpretations will never imitate each other perfectly in this lifetime, and I\'m fine with that. We stand shoulder to shoulder on the essentials, and I am perfectly content to know that you are wrong in the non-essentials. :grin

Next time we do something like this, I want to get together for some kind of agreement on how we will approach the question. My response turned into a freakin\' novel!

God bless you Rey,
Doug McHone

It was very fun though
Written by biblerey on 2005-04-27 18:02:27
I really enjoy it though. It\'s like when different brothers preach on the same passage and you see how the Spirit leads in what\'s to be expounded. Immensely enjoyable. I liked your read! It was good stuff.

God bless you too brother Doug,
Faith
Written by Name: Klompman on 2005-04-27 18:57:31Salvation is a gift of God, as are grace and eternal life. Faith is not a gift of God but is required of us in order to be saved.

\"What must I do to be saved?\" cried the Philippian jailer? \" Paul replied: \"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.\"

Total depravity does not mean total inability. We have been given the free will to respond to God\'s call or not. Otherwise the Lord Jesus would be a deceiver, asking people to do something they cannot do.
Indeed
Written by biblerey on 2005-04-27 20:56:05Brother Klompman, I\'m actually in agreement with you on all this save for one bit..the fact that salvation consists of grace through faith is itself a gift of God.

Even the fact that a person has faith is not something that the person wakes up and says \"I have faith on the Lord\". Likewise to the Calvinist, faith is not something suddenly imputed in a tight little package to be opened post-regeneration.

I\'ve used this example before. Two people Jack and Jill. Jack tells Jill to trust him but now we have a dilema. Jill has a couple of options. She could either ignore his request or she could say that she trusts him, mentally agree with him but in reality has some doubt because she doesn\'t know him really. But if before her eyes Jack proves himself never to be a liar, upright and always dependable by many folk, Jill will start to receive something that she couldn\'t have just come up with on her own...Trust.

So when Jack tells Jill \"Trust me\" she can, because she has seen how he proved trustworthy in all his dealings.

Likewise, God doesn\'t ask men in a blank void to Trust Him to save them. Nor does He suddenly insert Trust or Faith inside of men. He sends the Holy Spirit to convict men of their sin, of God\'s righteousness and God\'s judgment. The Father spoke and teaches men about Himself in creation and in the hearts of other believers. The Son was lifted up on the cross as a public testimony of God\'s love and salvation...all this recorded in His Word and dictated by His word. Faith doesn\'t come in a void or of someone\'s miraculous self-accord, but it comes by hearing the Word of God.

The beauty of it is that God continually sheds light, calling Men, revealing to Men, enlightening Men in His proofs that He is trustworthy. So much so that the word of salvation, that whosoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved, that word is placed on the very lips of men (what a gift!) but men, of their own volition, can decide to reject the truth and willfully not have faith on the One who has proved faithful.

This sad state, after such a person has been enlightened and has openly and knowingly rejected the one they knew they could trust, is so dire that the author of Hebrews and Peter would say that it is impossible to renew these men to repentence. They\'ve rejected the Ultimate Truth by the Ultimate Trustworthy One--what else could possibly renew them? At this sad point, nothing.

So yes Brother Klompman, we\'re at the same page except for how faith or trust is generated. God has proved Himself faithful and men have the ability to see that He\'s done this and trust Him.

But like I said, this post dealt with the thoughtflow of Ephesians 2 and tangentially with Total Depravity as both camps speak of it. Monday we\'ll have a guest poster give some more insight into this topic.

Faith
Written by Name: Klompman on 2005-04-28 12:12:28
Thanks, Rey. Yes, of course faith in God implies having heard His Word and being given an opportunity to respond. Otherwise what would one believe in? Even accepting a gift implies faith as, I believe, you pointed out. Or I read it somewhere else.

I\'m thinking of repentant faith in response to the gospel, which is, after all the power of God unto salvation to them that believe.

Written by biblerey on 2005-05-01 01:33:41
Praise the Lord.

Written by Name:papi on 2005-05-05 10:04:06
the word is mea culpa, in latin, mia for spanish.Did you intended it to be in spanish?

Written by biblerey on 2005-05-05 12:20:52
You know, Papi, I was just going to post that how I keep putting up \"mia culpa\" when I mean \"mea culpa\" but the Spanish keeps interfering in my thinking. :) Definitely have to work on that proof-reading bit.
- Rey

God's Awesome Plan of Salvation (Ephesians 2)

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